Actual (no just introducing) M17 on YouTube! Let's Build a Module17! - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kzZyr4_tpE

I'm new to M17. I've just set up DroidStar for Android, and it works fine on DMR. So now I need to see if it works on M17. A few questions: --Is there an echo or parrot for M17? --Is there a list of regularly scheduled nets? --Is there an M17 interest group in the Pacific Northwest? -- Bill K7WFB Seattle

All: This list just hit 100 subscribers, so given that it’s still on the Free tier at Groups.io, we’re full up (cannot accept any additional subscribers) until I step up to support the Paid tier. If you aren’t on the Connect Systems mailing list, I suggest you do so to follow the progress of the CS M17 Radios. If you go to https://www.connectsystems.com/products/top/radios/CS7000_M17.htm and stay there for a few minutes, you should see a popup for the CS newsletter. I wish I had a stable URL for subscribing, but I don’t. Here’s the latest from the CS newsletter as of today: STATUS OF M17 PROJECT The CS7000 M17 has started shipping. The first two has shipped to Japan. The rest will ship either Monday or Tuesday. They would have shipped yesterday but the manufacturer forgot to include the programming cables. The cables are being shipped by DHL and they suppose to be here on Tuesday. I am hoping they will get here on Monday. All the radios are packed along with the USPS labels on the box. Only need to put the programming cable in the box and close it. Once we start shipping those radios, the price will go from $249 to $299. As I said in an earlier email, the discount is because the early buyers are in effect subsidizing the production and I thought they should get a discount. The CS7000 M17 PLUS is coming along but we did have one hiccup. The manufacturer wanted to make sure the DVSI vocoder will work on the M7 version of the ARM microprocessor. The current microprocessor is the M4 version of the microprocessor. They are going to try it and should get the results in a few more days. ST micro says the M7 is backwards compatible with the M4. I thought I would find out about the compatibility myself by asking DVSI, the originator of the vocoder. They had a nasty attitude and told me unless I was the licensee of the vocoder, they would not tell me. I started out by calling them and the person I needed to speak to was not there. I left a message and they never called me back. Because they did not call back, over the next two days I called a few times per day hoping I would get someone. No one answered when I called them. Then they asked me not to call so much. If they answered and told me they would not give me an answer I would not have bothered them again. Over the next few days you will see an application note on our website on how to convert from DMR to M17 and M17 to DMR. Supporting The M17 Project We are asking the amateur community to buy in advance one or more of the radios. When the radios are available, you will be the first to get them at a discount from the standard price of the radio. If at anytime you decide you would rather not support this project, you can get your money back and then get in the back of the line for when the radios are released. As far as I'm aware, CS is the only company that is shipping a radio that can do M17 “out of the box”. I hope there will be significant support for Connect Systems with these radios. I wish I could purchase a pair, but my experiment budget is insufficient to do so at the moment. Request: Do you know of a repeater that includes MMDVM support, that can corresponding do M17? Please post back to this list if you know of such a repeater. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

Not clear on where M17 fits into the firmament. o D-STAR (JARL copyright, Icom trademark) - a stream protocol that uses AMBE to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as GMSK. o YSF (presumably copyrighted and trademarked by Yaesu) - a protocol (is it a stream or packetized) that uses AMBE+2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as C4FM. o DMR (copyrighted by ETSI and maybe trademarked by them too) - a protocol (is it a stream or packetized) that uses AMBE+2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as 4FSK (and TDMA to boot). See if I have this right: o M17 - a protocol (stream? packetized?) that uses CODEC2 to digitize the voice part of the stream and wiggles the electrons as ????. IMBE, AMBE, AMBE+, and AMBE+2 are all the IP of DVSI, Inc. It's unclear to me (K6BP probably knows! see below) whether or not the patents on the first two have expired or not. CODEC2 is not encumbered by patents and, for everything I've seen, actually superior to at least the older versions of DVSI's work (meaning that we would really like to use it for *two* reasons. :-) ) So, leaving IP aside, do I have the basics of M17 right - it's a protocol that uses CODEC2 to digitize voice? This is already 10 years old - https://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/dv/codec/AMBE_Exposed.pdf - I'll see if Bruce has updated it. -- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!

> W0CHP > > WPSD Author/Principal Developer/BDFL I have only recently become hotspotted - someone gifted me a Nano-Spot a few years back and I just made it go this month. Whole new world of geekery ... necessitated by the fact that I don't have an outside antenna for UHF at this house which we just bought last November. Yes, I need to get my butt in gear. WPSD looks interesting but I doubt it will install on my EOLed Nano-Spot (company gone). Off to read the docs! -- Peter Laws | VE[23]UWY / N5UWY | plaws0 gmail com | Travel by Train!

BlueDV and ClearNode have many other digital technologies available. Is there any way to influence the developers of those to add M-17 ? I there anyone that can help the WPSD Digital Voice by W0CHP and his team to add a Cross mode or transcoding so we could access M-17 from DMR or Fusion ? 73, Bob KB6CIO

Apologies for my not being more of a presence on this list. Zero Retries is my priority and I’m still not done with my “big M17 article”, which I will post here in addition to Zero Retries when complete. I’m aiming to have that done by mid-July. Administrivia: Currently, M17-Users is on the free tier of groups.io, which means the only groups.io features available is the BASIC email list. There are currently 90+ subscribers on this list. At the point where there are 100, no more can be added on the free tier. Beyond 100 subscribers I’ll need to change over to Premium which will be a minimum of $20/month which I’ll probably carry for a while as part of Zero Retries thanks to those who sign up for a paid subscription to Zero Retries. Just as an example of the finances, when I do switch over to Premium just for this list, the income from three annual subscriptions to Zero Retries would be required to pay for this list, after factoring in taxes, the chunk that Substack takes, etc. When I do switch over to Premium, I’ll also set “Accept Donations”. Any donations will directly offset the payments to groups.io to maintain this list - they won’t go to Zero Retries, but rather will mean that I don’t have to pay as much (or at all) to keep this list going. Pending developments in M17-world that I’m aware of: What Woj will be discussing at HAM RADIO starting tomorrow. He’ll be a speaker and (I think) an exhibitor. The Connect Systems M17 radios to debut for real sale and use. One of the biggest things that would differentiate M17 from all the other DV systems is a seamless way to do data / messaging / telemetry (like APRS), etc. All the other DV systems have data / messaging / telemetry as an afterthought at best. Having been developed in the past decade, I’m hoping that M17 will be better than all those other systems in regard to data / messaging / telemetry. When I’ve asked a few times about it, I’m told “Yes, it’s in there” but no one has provided any pointers or details. Thus, from what little I know, data / messaging / telemetry in M17 is still an open question. All the YouTube videos that we’ve seen to date have been general introductions, updates, or “science experiments” like how to set up Module 17 or mod radios to implement M17. I think that showing / discussing repeaters that have MMDVM (and thus, M17 as just another DV mode) and the Connect Systems portables using such a repeater will go a long way to making M17 more mainstream. One point that I think hasn’t been made… strongly enough… is that for all of those folks that don’t like that D-Star, DMR, SF, P25, etc. all use the DVSI proprietary CODEC chip… well, now those folks HAVE an option with M17 using Codec 2. Thus every time we see those arguments that “proprietary CODECs shouldn’t be allowed on Amateur Radio”, we need to point out that there IS now an option for that issue with M17. Unfortunately there are helluva lot of “hard coded” DMR, D-Star, SF repeaters out there that folks are going to be loathe to change. Thus there’s going to have to be a lot of work to experiment and document and create videos on how those hard coded repeaters can be made to run MMDVM and M17. Lastly... PLEASE TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES ABOUT M17 HERE ON THIS LIST! THIS IS NOT A SOAPBOAX / BROADCAST LIST, IT’S INTENDED TO BE A DISCUSSION, AND I’M VERY MUCH IN LEARNING MODE ABOUT M17. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ (Just one of many co-conspirators working to promote M17 and other 21st century Amateur Radio systems) -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

In the list of M17 hardware/software, I neglected to mention M17tools, which can use audio devices to generate M17 baseband. One conveniently packaged hardware device is the Digirig, which can pass the baseband, as well as provide PTT. Unfortunately, the current version of M17tools doesn't like my Windows laptop - there's brief interruptions to the audio (baseband) in both directions, which corrupts the signal. M17tools is being rewritten, and there's a good chance the rewritten version will run on my system. -- 73 de Tony VK3JED/VK3IRL http://vkradio.com

Hi everyone, just a quick introduction. Tony, VK3JED here, located in central Victoria, Australia. I've been following the M17 Project since late 2020, when I discovered it by accident via one of the DVSwitch mailing lists. I've been involved in the community since in a few ways - testing software and hardware, promoting M17 at hamfests and club meetings, and supporting other users on the M17 Discord, Facebook and other social media. Equipment wise, I have the following: Gateways BI7JTA duplex hotspot with hand built MMDVM stack (no Pi-Star or WPSD) running on a Pi 3B. The reason for the unusual configuration is because the hotspot is an analogue and digital hotspot, with an AllStar node driving a SHARI for the analogue side. I had to use the ASL 2.0 beta image, then install the MMDVM software on top from source. BI7JTA V3F4 MMDVM with external radios on a Pi 3B, configured as a repeater. This runs a heavily hacked version of Pi-Star, as it dates back to the first M17 capable version of MMDVMHost and M17Gateway. While I've upgraded software components, I haven't replaced the system with anything like WPSD (yet). Currently, the repeater is running into a dummy load. I have to install its antenna and update the licence paperwork. M17 radios BI7JTA V3F4 MMDVM running M17Client. This was my first operational M17 radio setup. The radio used with this MMDVM is a FT-818 in 9600 PKT mode. Module17 (Rev 0.1e). Also configured to work with the FT-818. Uses the same interface cable as the MMDVM. TNC3 with experimental firmware. SDR++ (Rx only). Very useful for testing M17 transmitters, because SDR++ has a very good M17 decoder with reference lines that allow you to check deviation. I usually use a PlutoSDR as the RF front end. I also have a RT3S, but need to get it modified. I don't trust my fine motor coordination. Anyway, I should be able to help others get on the air.

I just clarified in an email with Scott Zimmerman N3XCC of Repeater Builder, that their version of MMDVM, which they call RB_STM32_DVM V4 (latest) - https://www.repeater-builder.com/products/stm32-dvm.html does support all the same modes as the current MMDVM firmware: D-Star DMR System Fusion P25 NXDN M17 POCSAG AX.25 FM IE, it’s just another MMDVM device. The current verbiage on that web page omits M17 POCSAG AX.25 But those modes are supported by the V4 hardware, assuming the version of firmware loaded onto the unit is the latest. Thus, there is “repeater grade” hardware, and more importantly documentation and support, available to add MMDVM support to many / most Amateur Radio FM repeater systems. This is really good news for breathing life into tired old, increasingly unused Amateur Radio FM repeaters. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ

Is there a possibility of adding in a calendar to this group for events? It would be great to have a location to put in things like nets and M17 in-person events. --- Steve KC1AWV M17 Project

I just discovered this… https://m17.club/ The premier M17 Amateur Radio Club Where the M17 Project is largely centered around development of the protocol and implementations of it, the M17 Amateur Radio Club (ARC) is a user group focused specifically on encouraging and supporting the spread of M17 repeaters, mobiles, handhelds, and all other use of the protocol. That sounds a lot like the mission of this email list. Anyone know anything about this? Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

A primary reason that I consider M17 now viable is that it’s possible to build a repeater for use by M17. I first realized that from this mention of building an MMDVM repeater, which was capable of M17: https://robrobinette.com/Ham_VHF-UHF_Digital_Modes.htm And later there was this proof of concept - the W6CX-DV -- MultiMode Digital Voice Repeater which I discussed here: https://www.zeroretries.org/i/139822542/proof-of-concept-wcx-dv Are there other examples of MMDVM-based repeaters, or repeaters that are only M17? Again, I’m aware of “hotspot” repeaters / nodes. What I’m looking for is wide area repeaters that we would typically use for FM, DMR, D-Star, SF, P-25, etc. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

CSI has a pre-release announcement for two M17 HT radios and are accepting orders. https://www.csi-radios.com/radios/connect-systems/ I have no affiliation with CSI, but I hope these radios "fly off the shelves". It would be an important milestone for the M17 Project.

I think that upgrading (or creating from scratch) a wide-area repeater to do “just another digital voice mode” (especially one that has only a few radio options available) will be a challenging request for a lot of groups. But, if an M17 was able to do messaging and / or data (as in file transfers), that would provide additional incentive to do such an upgrade. I’m hoping that the (development in progress) MMDVM-TNC data mode becomes a reality and provides such a justification for upgrading / creating from scratch a repeater based on MMDVM, but having that capability in M17 would be great. So, can anyone point me to a writeup or video that discusses messaging and data in M17? Thanks, Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

Hi! LW7EMN, Juan, from Azul, Argentina. It is nice to see some community build-up Thanks for the zero retries moderator! I had been experimenting with M17 for a year.

Than you all for joining this list! I hoped for maybe a dozen of us and we’re comfortably past that. I’ll be at least another day before I can actively participate here as we visited our daughter after SEA-PAC. I currently do not have any M17 capable gear other than a pair of MMDVM boards for Raspberry Pi. What I hope to be able to promote to our fellow hams is current hardware that is capable of M17 over RF. By current I mean hardware that is in production and purchasable by other hams. It doesn’t have to be native M17 - just known that can be modified (with available instructions) such as the Icom radios or the OpenRTX portables. I think that a comprehensive list of RF capable hardware will strongly make the case for M17. So please share with what you have, and what you know that’s capable of M17 RF. Thanks, Steve N8GNJ Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!

Hello you first four brave new participants! Apologies that I’ll likely not be “present” for the first few days of this list, so feel free to talk amongst yourselves about M17. I’m particularly interested in hearing what YOUR perspective(s) are for what will need to happen for M17 to become usable in the minds of our fellow Amateur Radio Operators. IE… what kind of information do you think is needed to make M17 interesting and attractive to use? And… although I’m a US Amateur Radio Operator, and only familiar with US regulations, etc., M17 is intended for use worldwide, so let’s try not get too “US-centric” here with nuances, history, etc. Thanks! Steve Stroh N8GNJ --- Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas!